Platon Alexiades Posted November 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2021 Caro Franco, I understand your concern. However, I would like to ask a simple question: The 2003 hydrographic survey of Ras Hilal found only ONE wreck. Since the position corresponds almost exactly with that of the German submarine U-205 known to have been sunk there, please explain how HMS Urge took the place of U-205? If so, where did the wreck of U-205 go? I think it would have been useful to consult British documents before writing your article on HMS Urge. I am a bit surprised that you never asked me, as I would have gladly provided them. Basing yourself on exchanges written 40+ years ago is unfortunately not enough and the uboat.net site (to which I contribute) is a good starting point but does not hold ALL the details. A document at the Ufficio Storico stating that HMS Urge could have reached Ras Hilal on 29 April by travelling 220 miles per day ("calcolondo un transferimento giornaliere con navigazione occulta di ca. 220 mg."), is pure fantasy. No "U" class submarine achieved this speed in the entire Mediterranean war. I do not know who wrote this document as it is not signed. Was it Bertini or Cocchia? Perhaps you can enlighten me? If you had checked British records, you would have found out that HMS Urge would have been informed by ULTRA of a possible interception of an Italian convoy at dawn on 29 April. This was not the schooner San Giusto as you wrote, but a convoy over 200 miles away. Unfortunately, this was impossible as she had already been lost. Since the interception would have been at 0700B/29 April, please explain how she could have reached Ras Hilal one hour later? You have written many fine books and articles and I value your friendship. Your article on HMS Urge was nicely produced but I am afraid the conclusion was false. I still would like your opinion on the other Misson "discoveries" listed on my previous posting. Cordialmente, Platon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted November 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2021 Hello Mr Zidda, I thank you for your interest in British submarines and for reading the uboat.net files to which I contribute. My apologies if I mistook you for a follower of Mr Misson but since your comments were identical to his, I assumed that you were under his influence. To reconstruct the last moments of a submarine, signals sent or received from the submarine flotilla command are the most important elements. These can be found in the British archives (although some are missing) and not in uboat.net. You assume, as my esteemed friend Franco Mattesini does, that if an Italian CR-42 fighter saw a "submarine" at Ras Hilal, there must have been one. Unfortunately, aircraft pilots (Italian, British and other nationalities) often attacked what they believed to be a submarine when clearly none were present. This also applied to surface craft. My database has over 400 of these and I am sure I am missing many! Two weeks before the Ras Hilal story, a CANT seaplane escorting the Aprilia convoy sighted a submarine and directed the torpedo boat Pegaso to attack it. Shortly after, the pilot corrected his signal that this was actually a dolphin ("delfino") yet to this day, you can still find many books attributing the loss of HMS Upholder to Pegaso on this date (14 April 1942). Franco wrote a very interesting article on the Aprilia convoy in which he pointed out the error (see Bollettino d'Archivio dell'USDMM, giugno 2007). This is just to point out that these errors were common. I would also correct you that the sailing routes of HMS Talisman and HMS P222 never took them through Tabarka so their wrecks cannot have been located there. I do not know if and when the University of Malta will release more videos but I hope your doubts will soon be put to rest. Platon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Mattesini Posted November 15, 2021 Report Share Posted November 15, 2021 (edited) Caro Platono Bertini e Cocchia, e dovresti Saperlo, hanno scritto per l'Ufficio Storico i libri sui sommergibili italiani in Mediterranei e Sui convgli per l'Africa Settentrionale (1° e 2° Volume). Tu mi chiedi risposte a quanto abbiamo già discusso, e mi dispiace dirtelo ma sono stanco di questa diatriba, che poi non riguarda solo me. Io ho scritto, e secondo te ho sbagliato. Tu puoi scrivere per smentirmi. Ma, come ho già detto, resto alla finestra. Ho parlato ieri al telefono con Francesco, e gli ho detto che sono stanco di tutta questa infinita discussione, e intendo mollare, anche perché sono impegnatissimo malgrado abbia problemi di salute. Con i più cordiali saluti Francesco. Edited November 15, 2021 by Francesco Mattesini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted November 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2021 Dear Franco, I can understand it is annoying to you and probably to other readers to read these contradictions. I think I have published enough evidence on the identity of the Malta wreck. I do not remember people requiring to read the letters on other submarine wrecks to be satisfied. Although the University of Malta has not released all the evidence collected, I do not remember seeing as much details from the other wrecks. Some will never accept the reality that HMS Urge is located near Valletta and we have to live with that. No need to argue ad nauseam. The wreck of the submarine Jantina (unless someone expresses doubts?) has just been discovered and there are other subjects to discuss. I wish you good health and look forward to read your future articles. Cordialmente, Platon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Mattesini Posted November 15, 2021 Report Share Posted November 15, 2021 Caro Platon. Si é necessario stemperare. Possiamo passare ad altri argomenti e continuare a darci del Tu. Attualmente sto lavorando su un libro di 600 pagine dal titolo: I SOMMERGIBILI TEDESCHI NEL MEDITERRANEO (SETTEMBRE 1941 – SETTEMBRE 1944) Cordialmente Franco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culverin Posted April 29, 2022 Report Share Posted April 29, 2022 (edited) Congratulations to all who dedicated their time in the discovery of Urge. https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2022/april/29/290422-maritime-mystery-put-to-rest-with-submarine-memorial-unveiling In the fullness of time other lost boats of all nations will be discovered, the dedication of individuals such as Platon must be acknowledged as in the attached. Thank you, Sean. Edited April 29, 2022 by Culverin Thank you, Sean. Platon Alexiades and Giuseppe Garufi 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted May 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) On 4/29/2022 at 2:32 PM, Culverin said: Congratulations to all who dedicated their time in the discovery of Urge. https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2022/april/29/290422-maritime-mystery-put-to-rest-with-submarine-memorial-unveiling In the fullness of time other lost boats of all nations will be discovered, the dedication of individuals such as Platon must be acknowledged as in the attached. Thank you, Sean. Thank you Sean for your kind words. It was a great privilege to take part in the ceremonies and glad we could bring the families some closure. Diving on the wreck was done by a team of about 15 divers led by Professor Timmy Gambin from the University and by Gianmichele Iaria from Messina who was in charge of 3D photography. On 25th April 2022, at the University, we watched a movie taken the same day on the wreck when a commemorative plaque was put on the conning tower and a White Ensign deployed. The next evening, at the British High Commissioner residence, we had a virtual reality movie of the HMS Urge shown with special goggles. It was amazing, just as if were were diving the wreck ourselves. The Commodore Submarines James Perks was present on all occasions. A photograph of us watching the movie is on my Facebook page. Some interesting links: The Virtual Museum Malta: https://underwatermalta.org/discover/hms-urge/?fbclid=IwAR0YPFJKQx_YyvBgLePJR7EGxWuSi6xDJa9fSBGaiUf1Mj-3gfsy9kI49WY The ceremony at sea: https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=search&v=1320077265155292 The unveiling of the monument in presence of the President of Malta: https://www.facebook.com/HeritageMalta/videos/362663552567595 I know that some members of this forum had expressed some doubts as to the authenticity of the wreck. I hope this will reassure them. Platon Edited June 1, 2022 by Platon Alexiades Giuseppe Garufi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted May 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2022 Another link posted by Professor Timmy Gambin with some interesting photographs: https://www.ww2wrecks.com/portfolio/hms-urge-the-story-the-loss-and-the-ceremony-at-sea-by-professor-timmy-gambin/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Mattesini Posted May 11, 2022 Report Share Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) Caro Platon Ho ricevuto l'articolo che riguarda la cerimonia di Malta in onore dell'URGE. Ma aspetto ancora di avere disponibile il punto esatto in cui il sommergibile é affondato (coordinate), in modo da poter fare i miei calcoli, ed evitare di incorrere in contestazioni, che sono convinto arriverebbero. Cordialmente Franco Edited May 11, 2022 by Francesco Mattesini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted May 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2022 4 hours ago, Francesco Mattesini said: Caro Platon Ho ricevuto l'articolo che riguarda la cerimonia di Malta in onore dell'URGE. Ma aspetto ancora di avere disponibile il punto esatto in cui il sommergibile é affondato (coordinate), in modo da poter fare i miei calcoli, ed evitare di incorrere in contestazioni, che sono convinto arriverebbero. Cordialmente Franco Caro Franco, If you still have doubts and still feel that the Malta discovery should be contested then I am afraid the exact coordinates will not make any difference. I think you have a very good idea of the position from what has been published so far. I would be interested to know your opinion on the other so-called "discoveries" by your Belgian friend? He has made a long list which I will gladly debate with anyone interested in the subject. You know very well what I think of them. Cordialmente, Platon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platon Alexiades Posted May 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2022 (edited) A video of the plaque laid to honour the submariners. The letters identifying the submarine can be seen on the conning tower. https://www.facebook.com/uchumalta/videos/1412844009227785 Edited May 12, 2022 by Platon Alexiades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Mattesini Posted May 12, 2022 Report Share Posted May 12, 2022 Ho visto il filmato, e va bene. Ho scritto a Platon chiedendogli, soltanto, che mi dia le coordinate dell'affondamewnto, per fare le variazioni. Solo quello. E tanto che chiedo la stessa cosa, e sono stanco! Franco Mattesini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIDDA GIUSEPPE Posted May 31, 2022 Report Share Posted May 31, 2022 URGE _ identificazione definitiva del relitto di Malta Il recente filmato diffuso da Heritage Malta Underwater Cultural Heritage Unit https://www.facebook.com/uchumalta https://www.facebook.com/uchumalta/videos/1412844009227785 conferma in modo definitivo che il relitto scoperto dal team del prof. GAMBIN è lo URGE. Tutte le “prove” precedentemente diffuse dal team del prof. GAMBIN per scarsa conoscenza dei dettagli costruttivi dei sommegibili della classe U, hanno generato in me dubbi su questa storia, che ho evidenziato nelle mie precedenti note, motivati anche dal fatto che non sono state diffuse immagini decenti del lato di sinistra della vela del relitto. Nel filmato https://www.facebook.com/uchumalta/videos/1412844009227785 si notano i caratteri in rilievo del nome del battello sul lato di sinistra della vela. Non ci sono dubbi. Il relitto è lo URGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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